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	<title>Comments on: Anglican Discussions in the Blog-o-sphere</title>
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	<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/</link>
	<description>Non intratur in veritatem nisi per caritatem.  St. Augustine</description>
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		<title>By: Patrick C.</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3394</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3394</guid>
		<description>(not for publication)
Cynthia,
Your most recent post (...Mama) comes up blank on my screen. This has happened once before, with your Phillips Long post. Is this just me, or is there a glitch on the site?
Patrick</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(not for publication)<br />
Cynthia,<br />
Your most recent post (&#8230;Mama) comes up blank on my screen. This has happened once before, with your Phillips Long post. Is this just me, or is there a glitch on the site?<br />
Patrick</p>
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		<title>By: Still More on Anglican Orthodoxy at The Land of Unlikeness</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3384</link>
		<dc:creator>Still More on Anglican Orthodoxy at The Land of Unlikeness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3384</guid>
		<description>[...] Dan Dunlap has responded to Fr. Al Kimmel&#8217;s critique (see original post at Per Caritatem for the back story). He ultimately argues for a sense of catholicism in the Anglican Communion that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dan Dunlap has responded to Fr. Al Kimmel&#8217;s critique (see original post at Per Caritatem for the back story). He ultimately argues for a sense of catholicism in the Anglican Communion that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia R. Nielsen</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3381</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia R. Nielsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3381</guid>
		<description>Fr. Dan has posted a full response to Al Kimel on his (Fr. Dan&#039;s) blog.  The entry can be accessed here:  http://3rdmillennium.blogspot.com/2008/07/al-kimels-comments-on-my-recent-entries.html.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fr. Dan has posted a full response to Al Kimel on his (Fr. Dan&#8217;s) blog.  The entry can be accessed here:  <a href="http://3rdmillennium.blogspot.com/2008/07/al-kimels-comments-on-my-recent-entries.html." rel="nofollow">http://3rdmillennium.blogspot.com/2008/07/al-kimels-comments-on-my-recent-entries.html.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Anglican orthodoxy: &#8220;too much&#8221; of a good thing at The Land of Unlikeness</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3370</link>
		<dc:creator>Anglican orthodoxy: &#8220;too much&#8221; of a good thing at The Land of Unlikeness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3370</guid>
		<description>[...] continuing a theme started by Cynthia&#8217;s post and subsequent discussion here&#8230;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] continuing a theme started by Cynthia&#8217;s post and subsequent discussion here&#8230;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3360</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3360</guid>
		<description>Glad you&#039;ve made up your mind so clearly about 2 million Americans and their British counterparts. As usual, your rhetoric unmasks the trauma you obviously sustained in leaving TEC. I&#039;m sorry for your bad experience. But, frankly, I and episcopalians around the country are not having that same experience. 

It&#039;s curious to me that you so vehemently despise the episcopal structures that the Communion has or is trying so hard to develop to handle this situation, yet the RC is constantly dealing with the same from schillebeeckx and his Dutch compatriots in their support and inclusion of women in priestly leadership. Any censure they&#039;ve received has been slight, and as we saw a couple years ago, the pope still receives schillebeeckx in audience. Is Benedict &quot;tolerating&quot; heterodoxy&quot;?

It&#039;s funny that you point your finger at members of the Anglican Communion for being Experientialists when so many in your church (as I well know from teaching at an RC university) are so clearly the same! The state of affairs in both churches, as you know but will go to pains to deny, is so much more complex that you make it out to be. Seriously, you have professors scared to write about Mariology for fear of being accused of denying dogma, you have women PhD students wondering why they haven&#039;t received a better argument for keeping them out of seminary and off the altar than &quot;It&#039;s just not an option to be discussed&quot;, evolution is making its way into the RC academy more and more everyday thanks to fellows like de Chardin. 

Alvin, let&#039;s lay off the labels for a while and try to engage in charitable productive dialogue that recognizes the subtleties and nuances of each others&#039; position. We might actually get somewhere that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad you&#8217;ve made up your mind so clearly about 2 million Americans and their British counterparts. As usual, your rhetoric unmasks the trauma you obviously sustained in leaving TEC. I&#8217;m sorry for your bad experience. But, frankly, I and episcopalians around the country are not having that same experience. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s curious to me that you so vehemently despise the episcopal structures that the Communion has or is trying so hard to develop to handle this situation, yet the RC is constantly dealing with the same from schillebeeckx and his Dutch compatriots in their support and inclusion of women in priestly leadership. Any censure they&#8217;ve received has been slight, and as we saw a couple years ago, the pope still receives schillebeeckx in audience. Is Benedict &#8220;tolerating&#8221; heterodoxy&#8221;?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s funny that you point your finger at members of the Anglican Communion for being Experientialists when so many in your church (as I well know from teaching at an RC university) are so clearly the same! The state of affairs in both churches, as you know but will go to pains to deny, is so much more complex that you make it out to be. Seriously, you have professors scared to write about Mariology for fear of being accused of denying dogma, you have women PhD students wondering why they haven&#8217;t received a better argument for keeping them out of seminary and off the altar than &#8220;It&#8217;s just not an option to be discussed&#8221;, evolution is making its way into the RC academy more and more everyday thanks to fellows like de Chardin. </p>
<p>Alvin, let&#8217;s lay off the labels for a while and try to engage in charitable productive dialogue that recognizes the subtleties and nuances of each others&#8217; position. We might actually get somewhere that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Alvin Kimel</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3359</link>
		<dc:creator>Alvin Kimel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 14:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3359</guid>
		<description>Dan, I sought in my comment to address the present situation in the Episcopal Church, and you respond by invoking the orthodoxy of N. T. Wright, Ellen Charry, and Rowan Williams.  Let&#039;s not keep our heads in the sand.  Having served as a parish priest in the Episcopal Church for 25 years in four different dioceses, I think I have some small acquaintance with the theological and ecclesial realities, and in my judgment the Episcopal Church has indeed, as a whole, been moving in a heterodox direction.  Of course, this is easier to prove in the case of a Jack Spong or a Katherine Schori.  It is more difficult to prove for the average Episcopal priest, who continues to employ traditional theological and liturgical language but not quite meaning what the Church has traditionally meant by such language.  This is not surprising.  We are, after all, talking about a denomination whose dominant theological approach is accurately described as experientialist-expressivist, to use George Lindbeck&#039;s terminology.  Experientialists can be notoriously difficult to pin down on theological matters.  But clarity can usually be achieved by focusing on the nature of deity and the question of the salvific necessity of Jesus Christ.  It was, after all, the refusal of the Diocese of Maryland back in 1991 to affirm Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life that generated the &lt;a href=&quot;http://aacmd.layleaders.org/baltimore.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Baltimiore Declaration&lt;/a&gt;.  17 years later I think it is safe to say that Episcopalians are more confused and heterodox on the identity and work of Jesus Christ, not less.

You write:  &quot;The Church has always been a place in which theologians have taken risks and have been rewarded or punished for taking those risks.&quot;

True ... and your point is?  What views in the Episcopal Church are censured today?  Who gets punished?   Are bishops and priests disciplined for publicly denying the deity or resurrection of Jesus Christ?  Or to put it differently, whose views are marginalized today in the Episcopal Church?  Opposition to the ordination of women to the priesthood has already been effectively eradicated in the U.S.  I think it is safe to say that within ten years we will be able to say the same about the opposition to the blessing of same-sex unions.  But perhaps you approve of these developments and regard their imposition upon the faithful as compatible with &quot;orthodoxy.&quot;  Fair enough.  What about moral issues like abortion?  Is support of abortion-rights also orthodox?  What counts as heterodox today in the Episcopal Church?   What views effectively eliminate one from ordination?     

Oh, by the way, I&#039;m a great fan of N. T. Wright.  I also believe that Rowan Williams is a thoughtful, erudite theologian. But I think his leadership skills are wanting and that he is largely responsible, by his actions and inaction, for forcing the global south bishops to assert themselves at GAFCON.  Perhaps anyone in his position would have failed to avert GAFCON, but the leadership approach adopted by Williams virtually guaranteed it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, I sought in my comment to address the present situation in the Episcopal Church, and you respond by invoking the orthodoxy of N. T. Wright, Ellen Charry, and Rowan Williams.  Let&#8217;s not keep our heads in the sand.  Having served as a parish priest in the Episcopal Church for 25 years in four different dioceses, I think I have some small acquaintance with the theological and ecclesial realities, and in my judgment the Episcopal Church has indeed, as a whole, been moving in a heterodox direction.  Of course, this is easier to prove in the case of a Jack Spong or a Katherine Schori.  It is more difficult to prove for the average Episcopal priest, who continues to employ traditional theological and liturgical language but not quite meaning what the Church has traditionally meant by such language.  This is not surprising.  We are, after all, talking about a denomination whose dominant theological approach is accurately described as experientialist-expressivist, to use George Lindbeck&#8217;s terminology.  Experientialists can be notoriously difficult to pin down on theological matters.  But clarity can usually be achieved by focusing on the nature of deity and the question of the salvific necessity of Jesus Christ.  It was, after all, the refusal of the Diocese of Maryland back in 1991 to affirm Jesus as the way, the truth, and the life that generated the <a href="http://aacmd.layleaders.org/baltimore.html" rel="nofollow">Baltimiore Declaration</a>.  17 years later I think it is safe to say that Episcopalians are more confused and heterodox on the identity and work of Jesus Christ, not less.</p>
<p>You write:  &#8220;The Church has always been a place in which theologians have taken risks and have been rewarded or punished for taking those risks.&#8221;</p>
<p>True &#8230; and your point is?  What views in the Episcopal Church are censured today?  Who gets punished?   Are bishops and priests disciplined for publicly denying the deity or resurrection of Jesus Christ?  Or to put it differently, whose views are marginalized today in the Episcopal Church?  Opposition to the ordination of women to the priesthood has already been effectively eradicated in the U.S.  I think it is safe to say that within ten years we will be able to say the same about the opposition to the blessing of same-sex unions.  But perhaps you approve of these developments and regard their imposition upon the faithful as compatible with &#8220;orthodoxy.&#8221;  Fair enough.  What about moral issues like abortion?  Is support of abortion-rights also orthodox?  What counts as heterodox today in the Episcopal Church?   What views effectively eliminate one from ordination?     </p>
<p>Oh, by the way, I&#8217;m a great fan of N. T. Wright.  I also believe that Rowan Williams is a thoughtful, erudite theologian. But I think his leadership skills are wanting and that he is largely responsible, by his actions and inaction, for forcing the global south bishops to assert themselves at GAFCON.  Perhaps anyone in his position would have failed to avert GAFCON, but the leadership approach adopted by Williams virtually guaranteed it.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia R. Nielsen</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3353</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia R. Nielsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3353</guid>
		<description>By the way, thanks for the link, Patrick!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, thanks for the link, Patrick!</p>
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		<title>By: Anglicans and orthodoxy at The Land of Unlikeness</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3352</link>
		<dc:creator>Anglicans and orthodoxy at The Land of Unlikeness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3352</guid>
		<description>[...] Cynthia at Per Caritatem pointed to a couple blog posts on recent affairs in the Anglican Communion. She also asked for other links to Anglican reflections. Besides my link to NT Wright&#8217;s article on GAFCON, there were a couple comments on the state of affairs. I suggest you read the comments yourself as I won&#8217;t be quoting directly. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Cynthia at Per Caritatem pointed to a couple blog posts on recent affairs in the Anglican Communion. She also asked for other links to Anglican reflections. Besides my link to NT Wright&#8217;s article on GAFCON, there were a couple comments on the state of affairs. I suggest you read the comments yourself as I won&#8217;t be quoting directly. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3351</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3351</guid>
		<description>Your retelling of the history of TEC and the Anglican Comm. over the past century will indeed be compelling to many who keep up with such matters, especially those of a right wing mind. You already know that I demur, especially with your judgment of Abp. Williams leadership. But at this moment, I want to examine what we mean by what orthodoxy is and is not.

I doubt many would believe that Orthodoxy is some static, archival type monolith. Few would admit to that after Newman. Yet, many talk like this when they&#039;re referring to the Anglican Communions supposed rejection of or lack of support for a wholehearted orthodoxy. Yet, what exactly are we suggesting that they&#039;re rejecting by jettisoning a necessary orthodoxy among participants in the Anglican Communion. When one reads something by Bishop Spong, it&#039;s a bit of a easy sport to point out all the ways in which he&#039;s a heretic. Read Bp. Wright, the Apbs of York and Canterbury, Ellen Charry at PTSEM, Rev. Kate Sonderregger at VTS, or many of the southern cone Bishops and it&#039;s hard to deny their orthodoxy. Is it really the case that there has been an overwhelming turn to heresy among Anglicans? No. Is it the case that orthodoxy has been made optional? Well, if you subtely infer that orthodoxy demands keeping women away from the altar, then yes. But orthodoxy is and always has been more complex and interesting than that. 

The Church has always been a place in which theologians have taken risks and have been rewarded or punished for taking those risks. But even Arius wasn&#039;t accused of making Orthodoxy optional. His views, rather, were declared heretical, and not by way of foreknowledge on the part of the council members, but rather by vote of the council. Orthodoxy happens as a church practice, and it develops. Therefore, it&#039;s not surprising that may Anglo-catholic parishes now welcome women at the altar, and gladly. 

And as for a new understanding of catholicity, i&#039;m not sure what you mean by that, as I take my understanding of catholicity in no small part from the documents of Vatican II and the writing surrounding the council. Just as the writing of Vatican II takes a more &quot;inclusive approach&quot; as you put it toward addressing the concerns that the church has for the world, I think that we continue to see ecumenical councils, like those between Orthodox and the Roman churches, as well as the writings of Ratzinger and Williams taking the same tack. But I don&#039;t think that&#039;s all &quot;catholic&quot; means. Nor do I think that those like Williams and Wright, who I presume you&#039;re implicating, would agree that catholic is a justification for accepting heterodoxy, nor do I think you could find textual support for this claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your retelling of the history of TEC and the Anglican Comm. over the past century will indeed be compelling to many who keep up with such matters, especially those of a right wing mind. You already know that I demur, especially with your judgment of Abp. Williams leadership. But at this moment, I want to examine what we mean by what orthodoxy is and is not.</p>
<p>I doubt many would believe that Orthodoxy is some static, archival type monolith. Few would admit to that after Newman. Yet, many talk like this when they&#8217;re referring to the Anglican Communions supposed rejection of or lack of support for a wholehearted orthodoxy. Yet, what exactly are we suggesting that they&#8217;re rejecting by jettisoning a necessary orthodoxy among participants in the Anglican Communion. When one reads something by Bishop Spong, it&#8217;s a bit of a easy sport to point out all the ways in which he&#8217;s a heretic. Read Bp. Wright, the Apbs of York and Canterbury, Ellen Charry at PTSEM, Rev. Kate Sonderregger at VTS, or many of the southern cone Bishops and it&#8217;s hard to deny their orthodoxy. Is it really the case that there has been an overwhelming turn to heresy among Anglicans? No. Is it the case that orthodoxy has been made optional? Well, if you subtely infer that orthodoxy demands keeping women away from the altar, then yes. But orthodoxy is and always has been more complex and interesting than that. </p>
<p>The Church has always been a place in which theologians have taken risks and have been rewarded or punished for taking those risks. But even Arius wasn&#8217;t accused of making Orthodoxy optional. His views, rather, were declared heretical, and not by way of foreknowledge on the part of the council members, but rather by vote of the council. Orthodoxy happens as a church practice, and it develops. Therefore, it&#8217;s not surprising that may Anglo-catholic parishes now welcome women at the altar, and gladly. </p>
<p>And as for a new understanding of catholicity, i&#8217;m not sure what you mean by that, as I take my understanding of catholicity in no small part from the documents of Vatican II and the writing surrounding the council. Just as the writing of Vatican II takes a more &#8220;inclusive approach&#8221; as you put it toward addressing the concerns that the church has for the world, I think that we continue to see ecumenical councils, like those between Orthodox and the Roman churches, as well as the writings of Ratzinger and Williams taking the same tack. But I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s all &#8220;catholic&#8221; means. Nor do I think that those like Williams and Wright, who I presume you&#8217;re implicating, would agree that catholic is a justification for accepting heterodoxy, nor do I think you could find textual support for this claim.</p>
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		<title>By: Alvin Kimel</title>
		<link>http://percaritatem.com/2008/07/15/anglican-discussions-in-the-blog-o-sphere/comment-page-1/#comment-3343</link>
		<dc:creator>Alvin Kimel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://percaritatem.com/?p=596#comment-3343</guid>
		<description>Correction, to next to last paragraph, 1st sentence, which should read:

&quot;The new GAFCON developments are indeed regretable ...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction, to next to last paragraph, 1st sentence, which should read:</p>
<p>&#8220;The new GAFCON developments are indeed regretable &#8230;&#8221;</p>
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